Molecule wrote:That was indeed a lengthy reply which was very well worth reading. Thank you for that :-) I will try to tackle a few of the topics you mentioned but am sure to fall short in being as specific and eloquent in my phrasing as you are ;-)
Molecule wrote:I need to clarify one thing first. My personal "belief" system can hardly be categorized in any of the mentioned ones as I usually tend to evaluate the most logical parts of any system and see if those make sense in my own reality. The only thing I truly believe in though is cause and effect with the twist that cause has its origin in thought and that the very first thought might have an intelligent source (I am shaking hands with parts of the system of buddhism here). I personally believe that such an origin has its roots in conscience.
I applaud science for the vigorous research of all there is but to be fair we all should be aware of and also admit that science is still in its childhood with a clear manipulation going on which is comparable to the manipulation in the religious systems to achieve control (energy and health are just 2 of the sectors which are corrupted deeply to assure the current hierarchies stay in power).
I disagree with the approach of "if science hasn't explained it yet it is impossible" per se....and I certainly don't want to say that fairies should be considered a reality as long as science has not proven that they are not. The question is if it is useful to waste energy in this area and if so would the results serve mankind to advance on a physical as well as a spiritual/mind level or not.
We all make choices what to believe is the "truth" even though science has proven that absolute objectivity cannot be achieved as our perception is and always will be an interpretation of our physical senses and that our observing is influencing the outcome of a perceived reality. This becomes evident in the simple example of someone explaining to someone else how the colour "red" is perceived or how "love" feels or from a much more scientific point of view if you look at the double-slit experiment in the area of quantum physics. One's personal interpretation will determine how such a person will try to describe the topic or the outcome. So in the end our choices will be personal no matter how far science is with explaining reality and all things in it. There are no absolutes.
This flaw was and still is so fundamental for me that it leads the whole system ad absurdum. Why would an omnipotent "being" go to such lengths to put a system of punishment in place if it can only punish itself as a logical consequence?
I am sure that this system can be challenged in specific areas but this is also true for belief systems which are purely based on scientific evidence. A simple "I don't know" has the same meaning for a scientist as well as a religious person. The only difference is, as you also mentioned, that the scientist has more of a tendency to admit that he/she doesn't know or is wrong. I have rarely met a strong believer of religion who said: The bible (or whatever scripture) might be wrong.
I really don't mind people celebrating their (mis)conceptions as long as they don't try to involve (or even force) myself or other free thinking human beings into such or even harm us in the process. Having experienced what the mind can do I wouldn't be surprised if consciousness will serve all of us in our beliefs in the end when "the light goes out" creating heaven or hell for the christian fundamentalist or providing 42 virgins for the islamic one who has just pulled the trigger on the bomb.
Summerlander wrote: Ironically enough, I was raised a Catholic. My mother still goes to church every Sunday and still believes in God. My father doesn't. He is a degenerate gambler and I think he is a waste of space. So why then, do my beliefs agree with my father's and not my mother's when she was the one who was good enough to raise me up? Perhaps I've always been that way inclined. Maybe I inherited my father's genes in that respect. Or perhaps the fact that I saw a kid sobbing when told by a nun that he would go to hell for not being baptised prompted me to think for myself as a child.
Even as a kid, I thought that god was being unfair, and mind you, at these schools they teach you that you must not question the ways of God let alone doubt Him. I thought that it wasn't that kid's fault that he wasn't baptised. How could God let him go through such suffering? As I grew older and wiser, I also developed a partial interest in science. It gradually dawned on me what was going on. There was no evidence of God whatsoever.
eroxy wrote:Yeah, there are those things worth thinking about.
I wonder if there are any machines that make those worlds. Maybe we're in those machines? Hahahaha.
Anyway, I think that maybe we are the ones who will attribute value into life anyway, regardless of whether there's life after this one or not.
Yeah, as you said about music, is our brain adapting or over-adapting to the needs of survival?
This might sound cheesy or cliche, but I'm thinking, what prompts people to do really altruistic deeds, to the point of sacrificing their own lives, if they have no certainty of what happens after death?
Also, personally in my experience, whether there's a life after this one or not, it feels good to be able to contribute to the welfare or betterment to humanity. Simply put, it feels good to be benevolent. Maybe I'm programmed that way, for some reason, but I've had my share of experiences that can possibly make me be otherwise, and yet I choose to still be as helpful as I can to my fellow humans, even if the good treatment I give to them won't be returned.
For me, altruism gives somewhat of a hope that there's something more than the physical. Also, even if it doesn't give hope, then at least I made the short stay here of some of us humans a little bit brighter and more enjoyable.
If you want to really blow your mind, read up on the Quantum Eraser and the proven scientific fact that reality reacts to whether a human is looking at it or not. This starts to strongly suggest that reality is a virtual game designed to take you through a VR experience...
Altruism will likely be partly sourced in survival of tribe and kin, and be written into the genetic code. It will also have creeped into mental software, as cooperative altruism is actually what works best for personal and community prosperity. Where it gets spooky, and here is the Catholic/Christian angle, is love of enemy, and doing good to those that curse you stuff...
The one fly in this ointment is the data we get from NDE reports and difficult to explain impacts on lives. This evidence suggests that consciousness does have an eternal aspect, and that when separated from the body in certain ways, there is a connection to our apparent eternal aspect and eternal homeland, and this appears to be a strong wakeup or reminder of the connection and love between all that lives. Dannion Brinkley youtubes are instructive on this.
It likely does not matter why one invests in becoming a more empathetic individual, the key is to try it as an alternative to papering over the pain and isolation that arises from selfishness, with self harming vice.
eroxy wrote:All the inputs here are interesting to read!
If we have developed awareness or consciousness because of our long process of evolution, as Darwinian theory posits, and if evolution makes adaptations to the species evolving because it is necessary, what made it necessary for the human species to be self-aware in the Phase state?
I mean, what makes being self-aware in the Phase state more conducive for the greater chances of survival of the human species?
Is it because people can possibly be given hope that they are more than just brains with bodies/bodies with brains? And this hope gives a greater chance of survival?
Also, I'd like to ask what makes organisms adapt anyway? Yeah, we would say that organisms want to adapt to survive even longer and better, but why would they want to survive? And on the case of humans, why would we want to survive if there was no life or consciousness after death, anyway?
By my experience Catholicism is much better preparation for the larger reality than protestantism or athiesm, so rather than irony, I see you following a well worn path. When someone says they believe in God, they almost never mean they believe there is an old man with a beard in the sky, rather they mean there is more to life than meets the eye, and they cannot tell you what this is. The word God is like a koan, or the word up in flatland.
Liberal intellectuals write off theists as being members of DumbFuckistan, but this may be due to not looking beyond the surface of things, the words and metaphors, rather than feeling your way through life, and giving more weight to how your mother's life feels, how your father's life feels, intuitively, and then working back to the mental maps that they are prospering or degrading under. If the their map is perplexing, the thing to do is to dig deeper.
Everything in life has a core, which is either profitable or unprofitable, and all profitable elements have aspects of abuse. If your mental digestive system is not calibrated accurately, we slowly drift into rejection of everything and nihilism due to failing to parse out assessment of core versus perception of tangential abuse.
The rational solution is to rather detect order and peace and love and profitability, then follow this back to the mental map that animates this behavior. A great deal of order, peace, love and profitability that we encounter in western life traces back to Catholicism, and you and your presence as wise man on this mountaintop, is one more datapoint for this hypothesis.
If belief in God = belief that there is more to things than meets the eye, and then we start to read quantum physics, which confirms the breaking of the Newtonian delusion that most persons believe in, we resolve the conflict, and become the same as the simple minded theist, one in our belief that there is more to life than meets the eye, and in this we are part of the same club, apart from using different koanic metaphors.
Secondly, you seem to be going by the assumption that good moral values come from Catholicism. I beg to differ!
Summerlander wrote: From embryonic stem cell research, to abortion (with their terrible pro-life views), to contraception, and the list goes on
Summerlander wrote: The word God, regardless of what you say, did not set out to mean what you say is meant by people of today.
Summerlander wrote: d the notion that there is more to life than meets the eye is nothing but a product of human delusion.
Summerlander wrote: If the intellectuals say theists are dumb I only have one thing to say to that: there is no smoke without fire.
Summerlander wrote: Your fear of nihilism is your impetus for your argument. Not reason then.
Summerlander wrote: "don't be a cunt".
Summerlander wrote: As if people can't figure this out for themselves.
Summerlander wrote: What an insult to our intelligence
Summerlander wrote: LOL! Seriously? Newtonian laws may go out the window in the quantum realm but they are still applicable to the macro. Moreover, conscious observation does not determine the outcome of the double slit experiment, as you, and others like Thomas Campbell, seem to imply. For starters, "observation" in scientific circles really means making a measurement, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that measuring something, especially at such a small scale, will inevitably effect upon its original state. Read books like Brian cox's "The Quantum Universe" to have those quantum theory myths dispelled, my friend. Also, look up Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and how it all relates.
Summerlander wrote: And if you think that God had something to do with the universe coming into being, think again about the absurdity of this proposition and the infinite regress you imply. The universe is the product of quantum fermentation, so to speak, and did not require the aid of a Creator.
Summerlander wrote:Instead, we see the slow process of evolution in a universe that is indifferent to our intentions, thoughts and actions.
Summerlander wrote: Atheism proves that we can be mature enough to remain civil and pay attention to what really matters.
Summerlander wrote: We can be humanists, better humanists even, without God, His law, and His zealous minions.
Summerlander wrote: And Jesus, if indeed he existed (though everything that was written about him was suspiciously long after the fact) was a cruel, callous, and murderous cult leader. Check your Bible and you will find where he orders his devotees to slay those who doubt him. >:D
Summerlander wrote: And dear, in George Bernard Shaw's words: "The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
If you want a scientific view which begins to resemble an explanation for the origin of the cosmos, check out physicist Lawrence Krauss:
You may want to ask: Why are we here? I prefer to ask "how" rather than "why". But if one insists on the "why", well, here is a mundane explanation based on paleontological evidence: We are only here because 530 million years ago, the Pikaia Gracilens, the earliest known vertebrate, survived the Burgess Shale decimation. If this now extinct eel-like creature hadn't survived during that period, we would not be here today. Life seeks shelter, evolves, and adapts with the goal of survival. But it's not invincible and certainly not perfect. If today the Earth was struck by an asteroid as potent as the one that killed the dinosaurs 65 million years ago, we could all be annihilated leaving only the chance for the bacteria that exist to evolve into more complex organisms provided that the environmental conditions allow for that to happen. In about 4 billion years from now, the collision between our galaxy and Andromeda could wipe out all life on Earth and render it inhospitable for any form of life. There is a good chance that the Earth will be ejected out of the Milky Way mass in the process. And the moral of the story is that our existence here, today, is pretty random. We are notI hing but evolved bacteria that thrived overtime on a warm planet.
Finally, let me leave you with a quote:
"Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody - not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms - had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance, and other infantile needs)." - Christopher Hitchens
And, what the heck, listen to the man speak:
eroxy wrote:If you want to really blow your mind, read up on the Quantum Eraser and the proven scientific fact that reality reacts to whether a human is looking at it or not. This starts to strongly suggest that reality is a virtual game designed to take you through a VR experience...
I didn't know the double slit experiment was also called the Quantum Eraser. Hahaha! Yeah, it seems the particles or waves are aware we're observing.
##if I understand this correctly, the quantum eraser is a mainstream physics experiment (you can wiki it) that suggests reverse time causality. Through beam splitters and photon counters, two ways to measure "which slit" are set up. One way is so indirect, the physics does not trigger probability collapse and particle behavior. The other conventional way, is direct and the physics of the universe detects that it is being observed, and this yields a particle response when the measurement is observed. The VR theory explains this as everything is held in probability suspension until a consciousness observes, such that, even though burning the direct measurements before looking at them appears to reverse the collapse of probabilities and particle behavior, in actuality, the physics algorithm does an observer assessment at the moment that consciousness looks at it, irrespective of what came before. The proverbial tree does not fall in the woods, until someone goes and looks at it. The Quantum Eraser is system glitch that permits humans to see this in action. I think I am describing it somewhat accurately.Altruism will likely be partly sourced in survival of tribe and kin, and be written into the genetic code. It will also have creeped into mental software, as cooperative altruism is actually what works best for personal and community prosperity. Where it gets spooky, and here is the Catholic/Christian angle, is love of enemy, and doing good to those that curse you stuff...
Yeah, it makes sense that aggression becomes obsolete to a mechanism that makes survival more likely, along with the age of societal norms which protect one from physical violence, enforced by the government.
## a healthy redirection of this energy is sportThe one fly in this ointment is the data we get from NDE reports and difficult to explain impacts on lives. This evidence suggests that consciousness does have an eternal aspect, and that when separated from the body in certain ways, there is a connection to our apparent eternal aspect and eternal homeland, and this appears to be a strong wakeup or reminder of the connection and love between all that lives. Dannion Brinkley eiare instructive on this.
Yeah, I wonder how we can necessarily prove that NDE's are not just simply brain activity and that they have a reality independent of physical matter.
## there is some work being done to prove this objectively, I think in operating rooms. Part of investigating this is to interact with the NDE community. You can view the video material attached to Dannion Brinkley, and hang out on NDERF.com. Tom Campbell and Bob Monroe OBE people are very big on confirmation protocols. I am interested to know if Phasers have ever experimented with Phasing in environments that appear to be reality based, and testing if they are interacting with a dream and imagination or actual physical reality, as some OBErs believe. Like observing action in physical reality from the Phase and then asking if it really happened after the fact.It likely does not matter why one invests in becoming a more empathetic individual, the key is to try it as an alternative to papering over the pain and isolation that arises from selfishness, with self harming vice.
I guess we live in a community more harmoniously if we learn to be more selfless.
##there is a positive economic feedback loop from dialing up selflessness and the perception of being a fair trader, committed to long term economic interaction, hard to anger and quick to forgive. This is the basis for operating in groups, and groups rule.
Anyway, I'd like to pose a certain question to all. I've been thinking about this last night and I also watched this youtube documentary on Hidden Human History which piqued my interest even more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAm-kbzT ... re=related
The question is this: Granting that The Phase is a certain state of consciousness in our brain which can apparently simulate anything from God, aliens, sexual fantasies, shape-shifting, telekinesis, getting our dreams fulfilled, etc; does this really disprove that the things we simulate there can actually happen in our waking state, in real life? I mean, what if we can simulate those things in The Phase AND experience them in our waking state, without any altered states of consciousness?
What possible implication am I hinting at? This: that being able to simulate certain things in The Phase, doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't actually unreal in instances OUTSIDE THE PHASE.
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