Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Deepening, maintaining, primary skills, translocation and finding objects

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:01 pm

You appear to have the wrong logic there.  One is never in the real world when in the phase.  What is perceived in the phase is always an illusory reality created by the mind - no matter how much it seems to emulate the actual world.  A lot of its elements are subconscious expressions and imagination there has the potential to become perceived actuality.

Things of the phase feel real but they are not actually existing.  Even the sense of space, distance and movement is an illusion.  It goes as far as proprioception.  I mean, what do the inconsistencies you encounter every time you separate into your simulated abode tell you?  I think you are at the stage of finding out what the phase is really about through experience and may well discover that many so-called experts have published a lot of rubbish and continue to promulgate unfounded ideas on the subject.

There is no real out-of-body state.  Not into the physical world.  Not into the astral plane either.  There is only the manifest emulation of such idea in the phase state.  It is all mind.  A practitioner is better off focusing on the state's practical ends - you will find many examples in Michael Raduga's School of Out-of-Body Travel.

Good luck! :)
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:04 pm

I am well aware that all of reality is simply a virtual reality.


More precisely, what we experience and feel to be real is a mind construct.  During the day, in the wakeful state, our perception is constrained by sensory input.  At night, in our sleep, perception is unconstrained by sensory input.  This is the time when you are truly free to perceive anything you want (which includes what would be impossible in the real world).  Whether you are fully conscious or not during your sleep makes the difference between ordinary dreaming and the phase state.

I'm sensing that you have misconstrued what I initially said.  The nature of the physical world has nothing to do with what was stated - bearing in mind that the real world being a "virtual reality" is only a theory (possibly stemming from the old "brain in a vat" or similar philosophical ideas).

how can I differentiate between things that are happening in real-time in our normal everyday reality AND something that I have projected with my mind. In other words, if my mother told me that everything I told her was exactly the same as in the phase experience I had then that would mean that I really observed her in real-time in this reality rather than some mind projection of my mother that I randomly created (or maybe zapped into different dimensions/alternative realities)?


First off, your perception of the real world is cut off or dramatically reduced when you fall asleep.  When you enter the phase, you are thrust into a mental world.  If some sort of communication could be established between two people and only one or both were in the phase, then it would not necessarily mean that their conscious essences left their bodies and made contact in the real world. 

If two existing individuals make contact and the phase is involved, then it could be a case of some sort of telepathy where two minds are in synchronicity - which would call for a scientific investigation on both brains and how electromagnetism might play a role.  This is already being investigated by professor Michael Persinger.  Whether such thing really happens or not is debatable and one must be careful when ruling out coincidence and other explanations.  Whatever the case, one must not jump to conclusions and assume that something observed is empirical evidence for a theoretical concept such as the departure of the human soul from the physical body.

Another thing I wanted to point out is the faulty (or lacking in coherence) "real-time" term.  What does that even mean?  Is it the real time as it passes in the real world measured by clocks as opposed to perceived time in the minds of people?

Finally, the alternate realities or different dimensions hypothesis is very tenuous compared to more substantial explanations such as the subconscious mind being largely responsible for what happens in the phase or even the random firings of neurons (the cerebral electrochemical causation).  Also, one can sometimes derive personal psychological content from such experiences when placing them under scrutiny - which makes the otherworldly visits assumption lack in substance by comparison.

Deliberately transmuting living objects in the phase or willing to control their speech usually rules out the perception of other physical worlds and their inhabitants and dispels their apparent veracity in existence.  In time and with experience, one begins to realise the hallucinatory nature of the phase state.

But let's suppose that at times a phaser can visit another world, an actual one, objectively existing.  how would the inhabitants of that world perceive the phaser?  As a ghost?  As an alien?  How do we explain their often erratic behaviour and at times illogical responses other than the expressions of a side of our minds that knows no boundaries in its holistic ways and abstraction that goes beyond language and logic? 
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:48 am

In answer to your simple question: there is nothing to differentiate because you do not separate into the real world and you don't separate into an objective spiritual realm either.  In fact, I'm asserting to you that even separation is only a sensation and what happens in the phase is absolutely illusory.  That is as practical as I can get with you.

I'm very familiar with the ideas of Frank Kepple.  He hypothesised a whole model of what he thinks is going on.  It is a little biased since he is of the belief that there is an afterlife and that the phase is tied to that.  But there is no reason to believe that that is the case and more evidence that what we are dealing with here is very subjective and arising from brain chemistry.  I used to think Kepple's model was great and it had to be right.  Further experience soon ruled it out and I found myself resonating with the dry facts of Michael Raduga's book (I suggest you give SOBT a read) and Stephen LaBerge.

From what I recollect, Kepple started an online course to help people reach higher planes of existence (in his Focus Model), collected money and then disappeared.  Very suspicious.  He was very charismatic and many believe he conned many members of Astral Pulse.  I would be really careful if I were you when absorbing other people's ideas.  Experience the state by yourself without any expectations because otherwise the material you read will only help you to formulate phase scenarios that will supposedly "confirm" what you've read.  I mean, if someone says they believe in unicorns because they've seen one and they give you the impression that they are experts at seeing them, are you going to take them at face value?

I once thought I was travelling in an astral plane in the phase.  I even visited that Astral Pulse Island (the picture they have on the site that has supposedly been manifested by everyone's imaginations and can be shared) and even saw Kepple there.  I bet if he was around at the time he wouldn't hesitate to confirm a "meeting" in one of his focuses of consciousness.  But by that time he had already done a runner with everyone's money... ::)

I even drew my encounter with him in that island, with the pyramid and everything.  Looking back, now I know my mind was simply playing to my expectations in the phase...

Image

Amazing what your mind will do for you if you just believe...
Stephen LaBerge couldn't have said it better though:

"I am making an appeal for a more scientific, critical-minded approach to the relationship of OBEs to lucid dreams. It is not enough to claim, as Monroe (1985) does, that OBEs are simply not dreams or that "those who have actively participated in [research at the Monroe Institute] have inescaped [sic], and conclusively accepted the reality of the out-of-body experience." Monroe asserts that "the protocols, methodology, and measurement systems may be different from conventional scientific process, by necessity. Physiologic parameters are not necessarily the major gauge of non-physical events." Unfortunately, Monroe appears to simply assume that the OBE is non-physical, occurring "without the support mechanism of a physical body and physical sensory stimulants [sic]." If this is science, where is the evidence? If it is not, as I fear, it may be like—Monroe’s words—"trying to measure and analyze electricity with a coffee cup." Incidentally, what psychophysiology is trying to do is correlate mental events with brain physiology, not an altogether absurd undertaking unless you believe your brain is nothing more than a cooling system. Anyone more than "somewhat aware" of the recent developments in the study of lucid dreaming will know how successful the psychophysiological approach has been in shedding light on a phenomenon previously no better understood than the OBE. I see no reason why OBEs could not be efficiently studied by the same signal-verification methodology that is now standard for laboratory investigations of lucid dreaming.

I would like to leave readers with something to think about regarding what it might mean to "leave your body." First of all, what exactly does "being in your body" mean?

Being in the body means constructing a mental body image. Because it is based on sensory information, it accurately represents the body’s position in physical space. While dreaming, we are out of touch with our bodies and consequently liberated from the physical constraints imposed by waking perception. Thus, no awkward sensory facts are present to limit our movement in mental space, and we are free to move out of the spatial orientation defined by "being in the (physical) body." The part of us that "leaves the body" travels in mental, not physical, space. Consequently, it would seem reasonable to suppose that we never "leave our bodies" because we are never in them. Where "we" are when we experience anything at all—OBEs included—is in mental space. Milton’s famous phrase, "The Mind is its own place," goes not quite far enough. The mind is not merely its own place, the mind is its only place (LaBerge, 1985, pp. 220–221)."


http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/comments.htm
Last edited by Summerlander on Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:52 pm

There was a thread about it ages ago.  Of course, the site owner and Mod Xanth, adherents of Kepple's ideas, will protect his legacy.  The official word is that he must have died.  I'm not out here to prove anything or to change your mind.  I'm just advising you to be careful because we are all exposed to a lot of information and a lot of it isn't accurate.

Paranormal phenomenon does not prove that there is an afterlife either.  I'd go as far as saying that there is no paranormal.  There might be perinormal - a more appropriate term.  There is so much I could say on your misconceptions about NDEs and so called past life regressions.  But we won't go there because it has already been covered here and there is no point.  I can see that you would not open yourself to mundane and real explanations.

Indeed, each one to their own and if you hold Kepple's esoteric ideas close to your heart, then do what you think is right.  I'm glad that at least you have taken into account Michael Raduga's practical information to help you with your practice. ;)
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby White Mist » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:50 am

@ LoLMart

Its not being closed minded, its being scientific, realistic, and practical.

Being closed minded would be saying something along the lines of: "There is NOT an afterlife, there can be no such thing as anything paranormal, its impossible!"

That's not what Michael Raduga or anyone else here is doing. They are just simply stating that there is no evidence to support this Hypothesis or that thoery of it being real, but are not saying its impossible.

I use to be like you LoLMart, I was a true astral projection believer. I believed in chakras, astral plane, ethiric plane, Akashic Records, Astral Entities, you named it
I believed it like it was a religion.

I'm becoming more and more like Summerlander here. Now that I look back a view like Summerlander's and everyone else's, the whole Astral Travel/Projection is sounds silly. Also people talk about like how religious people talk about their religion.

I love Michael Raduga's approach to the phenomenon
Last edited by White Mist on Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
White Mist
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:57 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby White Mist » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:08 am

I have had a picture taken of me in middle school that showed my aura. It was cool. Wish I could have kept the picture :/

I said chakras and all that because that's what 95% of "Astral Projecters" relate all of that too. Even steve g Jones does it.

I'm sure u have heard, people saying that you need to so this or that to "Astral Project".

Which by now I find a lot or most of those things to br untrue.

I personally don't care what people call this phenomenon or what they believe it to be. That's their choice :)
User avatar
White Mist
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:57 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:30 pm

lol why do you have to believe in chakras and all the rest? There is science to it. There are electromagnetic cameras, aura cameras that actually map out where your chakras are.


What?!  LOL!  This is another one of your misconceptions, my friend.  There is no scientific evidence for chakras or auras whatsoever and if you heard that somewhere, the source is either mistaken or deceitful.  They are nothing but concepts, beliefs.  You are probably making the same classical error that those New Agers who typically buy into pseudoscience (eg. Nassim Haramein, the crackpot) make: mistaking a kirlian aura for a spiritual one.

The kirlian aura is a phenomenon explained by electrical discharge if an object makes contact with a photographic plate in kirlian photography.  It has nothing to do with spiritual essences or evidence of a spiritual realm.  What you see is very much part of the physical realm. ;D

Quantum physics, The Unified Field Theory that Nassim Haramein has proven to be correct. You can simply look into it. I can't believe that I am on a forum where people discuss probably the highest form of meditative practice and they still don't know about the proof of chakras and other stuff. Wow. Again - the proof of afterlife or anything else energetic or paranormal IS THERE. You just have to read a lot and make logical connections until there is only one option left - the truth


Again, typical New Ager using that which he doesn't understand as supposed evidence.  Just because something is weird doesn't make it supernatural.  I recommend that you read Brian cox's works on the quantum universe.  It will dispel for you any of the tripe that has been unfairly attached to it and will show you why quantum theory works and how it has helped us to create one of our greatest inventions: the transistor.

More recently, scientists have posited that a theory of everything is very likely to come from, not the study of quantum physics, but rather, thermodynamics - which would encompass an explanation for gravity in an entropic universe.

By the way, logically, the phase state phenomenon is not proof of an afterlife.  If you think it is then I ask you... on what grounds?  Is dreaming or hallucinating proof of an afterlife too?  Is seeing that which isn't there proof that something exists?  Reading a lot of bull will not get you any closer to the truth, my friend, just like you can learn a lot more just by going to a science museum than wasting a lifetime studying the Bible only to derive your interpretation of it at the end.

The Frank model works for them on the principle of expectation when the fans enter the phase.  I told you this before but you seem to choose to revel in ignorance.  One day, in your own time, you will look back on this and realise how silly you've been.  Frank was also no God, I can assure you.  He was popular and people are buying into his ideas.  Hitler was even more popular and influential to the point where many were blind about his intentions.  Marshall Applewhite of the heaven's gate cult was also the "god" of many and he led his followers to commit suicide.  What you have displayed is a great naivete about the world and a willingness to blindly believe in anything that you find pleasing - without considering real facts, mind you.

So Frank's lengthy posts... can be likened to that of a phoney pretending to be a psychic and telling his clients what they want to hear, or a paedophile grooming a child to get his own way.

On the kidnapping theory... or shall I say conspiracy theory... seriously?  Really?  That is supposed to be more likely than a guy scamming everybody?  How about some peeved off person, whom he owned money to, catching up with him? ::)

Come on.  Wake up and smell the coffee, pal.  It's like a kick in the attitude.

Image
Last edited by Summerlander on Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby White Mist » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:56 pm

Love the picture there summerlander, lol.
User avatar
White Mist
Jr. Member
Jr. Member
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:57 am
Location: Oceanside

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:17 am

I just had to include it!  It's so funny! ;D
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:32 am

My GOD... Those people on Astral Pulse were absolutely right about you, Summer... They also told me you will ban me if I strongly disagree with you lol. We will see if that happens. I wonder why there are only like 5 people in this forum...


Of course they would say that.  But did you know that nobody has ever been banned here for disagreeing with the practical and materialist approach?  After all, why would we have a section of this forum dedicated to those who believe in Astral Projection and hold more esoteric views?  See for yourself, LoLmart.  Meanwhile, the folks on Astral Pulse, namely Ryan (aka Xanth) have banned several people just because they were of a different calibre - I included.  So ask yourself who bans who and for what motives.

Also, saying that there are only 5 people in this forum is an exaggeration that can be likened to the way of thinking that kids adopt back at school.  This isn't a popularity contest, my friend.  While this site is heavily dedicated to the primacy of practicality, the folks elsewhere still wrestle with tenuous theories and hogwash.  There may be less people here but I'd be willing to bet that they are more experienced at entering the phase than that lot.  Simply because this site is dedicated to what works in practice and does not waste time with so-called energy work and the ridiculous notion of chakras.

I did not say that kirlian photography proves the chakras. There are special cameras who MAP OUT your energy centers. Your body has energy, do you know that? You can actually measure the volts coming from your body. These special cameras can simply show this energy and the vortexes it creates at certain places proving the existence of the chakras. This is very very basic stuff, my friend. You are simply not up to date.


You practically stated that proving chakras is based on kirlian photography, it's there, you said it! ::)

There are gadgets that measure electricity.  True.  But electricity is something physical.  Where did you hear about this hogwash that technology has recorded the existence of chakras and energy vortexes?  Show me the source and we might just have a decent logical conversation where I will point out the fallacies for you using reason.  It might educate you. ;)

Calling Nassim Haramein a crackpot is a disgrace to one of the most brilliant men on this planet. The guy is a modern day Einstein that you most probably do not understand or your ego is defending your belief system too strongly so the only option for you is to put everything in a "New Age" category so you don't have to think about it or analyze it independently.


I don't really have a belief system.  I consider facts, LoLmart.  If there was such thing as a spiritual plane, chakras and real out-of-body states with real empirical evidence to back it up, then I would be the first one to promulgate it and make it known worldwide.  But so far, I've found evidence to the contrary and that is what my experience tells me - it is called being a sceptic (a healthy way to deal with all the tripe bombarded online).  And apparently I'm not the only one who sees it that way.  Michael Raduga, Stephen LaBerge, Susan Blackmore, Celia Green and a whole range of volunteers that I deal with on a weekly basis that help us with our research at the OOBE Research Center.

To call that guy a modern day Einstein is an insult to Einstein himself.  Please don't keep shooting yourself in the foot with that nonsense.  You asked a question here and you received an answer that you didn't like, so, maybe it is you that needs to do a little introspection on that ego of yours.

pharmacists test pills by subjecting a group of people to a placebo pill telling them it will cure them and another group of people are subjected to the tested pill itself. In order for the pill to be put on the market it simply has to perform better than the placebo pill. The group that takes the placebo pill always show POSITIVE measurable physiological difference compared to before taking the placebo pill. That means that these people's minds, thinking that they will be cured, actually have a positive healing effect. Mind Over Matter! This is the test bar that pharmacy pills have to outperform! This is really basic stuff. You can start from there. I am still thinking about your comment on Nassim Haramein, man, how can I possibly take you seriously...?!?


I am well aware of the placebo effect.  In fact, you must have missed the mention of it in SOBT and how it can be more effective during the phase state.  But again you shoot yourself in the foot with that ignorance revolver of yours.  The placebo effect is not proof of mind over matter - it is only an observable occurrence that denotes the relationship between the mind and the body.  To study the way the mind and the body interact, you might want to start with psychophysiology (it's very interesting).

Did you also know that when a woman had her amygdala removed, she lost her sense of fear?  And if one can experience fear in the phase, what does that tell you about the state itself?  Erm... let me answer that one for you in case you are not on a par with this: it is not only a state of mind but also something that is eventuated by a brain function. ::)

On the mind over matter debacle, you might want to explore the possibility that our sense of free will is nothing but that: a sense (and therefore, the concept is an illusion).  We have a whole thread dedicated to free will and it will introduce you to Sam Harris, who is a neurologist and has written a whole book about it.  It will get you to consider different perspectives and open your mind.  But hey, if your ego still clings to your favoured belief and your instinct is to reject the view of an expert, why don't you study neurology and then challenge him? 

Do not start by watching pseudoscientists like Nassim or Thomas Campbell on Youtube... please!

There, that's how you can possibly take me seriously... and vice versa. ;D

Image

Sorry, couldn't be helped. :D

I'm giving you the tools for you to cultivate a sceptical stance, LoLmart.  If you don't take heed of any of it like you have taken SOBT's advice into consideration, then we have a section in this Forum dedicated to Astral Projection (for those who believe) where you can post your ideas and discuss them with like-minded people.  There is no banning.  The Astral Projection amnesty still stands here. ;)
Last edited by Summerlander on Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:49 pm

I don't really think I'm in my brain.  I am the brain.  My sense of self originates from a complex and peculiar arrangement of atoms that came together to form a mechanism which developed overtime and so did consciousness alongside it as a result.  In the beginning when everything looked more like stardust (and we are still stardust - only in a different form because so many millions of years have passed) life happened purely by chance. 

Why did it happen?  Because it could, because the probability was there.  The basic blocks of life formed and gave rise to life in its primordial form.  Then it evolved into what we see today, which, in contrast to the random beginning, such process came about by natural selection.

Along with our developing/adapting physiology, so did consciousness become ever more prolific.  So when I'm dead, it is very likely that we won't be having a conversation at all let alone me thinking that I'm still in my brain (or that I am my brain) if my brain is destroyed.  Dead means dead, LoLmart! ::) 

If there is some sort of "afterlife" (hold your horses 'cos I'm not a Spiritualist in the slightest), I am pretty sure it won't be angels singing in heaven where you meet all your dead relatives and friends (although this might be hallucinated during the process of dying when those endorphins and cerebral psychedelic compounds kick in). 

Rather, hypothetically speaking, my awareness could be brought back into being if the universe stumbles upon the right coordinates in space once again (kinda like the young robot's mother in AI: Artificial Intelligence - only the highly advanced robots of the future made that possible, go watch it, it's a brilliant movie (!)) - in which case, it would not be a metaphysical afterlife - it would be a PHYSICAL one (rebirth not reincarnation).  In this scenario, which would be natural and physical, I wouldn't even be the same person as I'd have a different upbringing.  I'd be starting from scratch, like a baby, and thus perceiving the world as though for the first time, and, of course, forming new memories.  I'd have no recollection of you nor having previously lived.  In fact, I wouldn't be me as I am now (no matter how much you believe those past life memory cases - which, by the way, I've refuted a million times before).

Anyway, we're not here to debate about whether there is an afterlife or not.  I don't even see how that comes into the equation in relation to the question that you've just asked which has already been answered (sorry it wasn't the response you expected).  Let's suppose there is a metaphysical afterlife (which I think there isn't)... why should what happens in the phase state be linked to that and not be just a state of mind that a living person can access which enables contact with the subconscious?

By the way, if you think we are special and that there is a point or a meaning to all of this other than what we decide it is, I recommend that you really absorb the information from the following link and reflect on it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 81113.html
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby breadbassed » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:36 pm

How is 'your awareness stumbling back to the right co-ordinates in space, and being re-born' any different from re-incarnation? There is still a 'part' of you that comes back to 'physical' life. Obviously you wouldnt be anything like you are now. You would be two completely different people, though you are saying that there is some 'essence', (your self), that can carry on.

Both of you should read this book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-God-Equatio ... 828&sr=8-1

If you dont wanna pay for it you can get a sample for free and see what you think.  Summerlander, I do admire your capability to structure a well reasoned and scientific argument against these 'spiritual' ideas. If you could argue against the ideas in this book without invoking a materialist dogma then i would be highly impressed!
User avatar
breadbassed
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:13 pm

@ LoLmart:

No.  There is a bit of a misconception there.  Scientifically, given the observations from testing mammalian brains (for example, in cognitive neuroscience the focus is often on how brain damage can affect cognition OR even how malfunctions are tied to certain disorders, eg. overactive projection of dopamine in the basal ganglia is linked to schizophrenia) and the fact that only what is physical can be observed and/or measured, the mind has to arise from matter and consciousness has to be the epiphenomenon of brain function as far as identifying neural correlates and interpreting them to be the cause is concerned.

Admittedly, we don't yet have a physical explanation for consciousness (but this doesn't mean that a metaphysical explanation is a real explanation, because, after all, how can something non-physical interact with the physical and to be honest, I find the term "non-physical" to be absurd in justifying the physical action of something that exists).

It is known, however, that we can have different degrees of consciousness and these can be measured (such as unconsciousness, dreaming, waking and phase states).  There is more on measuring consciousness here, which, as you'll see, isn't simple.  But then again, what would one expect given the fact that the brain is the most complex organ we know:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2767381/

Consensus is still out about what could cause the mind and consciousness to emerge.  There have been recent suggestions that quantum mechanics is involved, but, Christof Koch (a neuroscientist who has been recently trying to locate the neural correlates of consciousness) dismissed the theory as insubstantial (arguing that states arising from such source would not stay coherent for long enough) and has decided that we can now begin to understand consciousness using modern tools whilst applying the reductionist approach.

In the following link, Koch attempts to clarify the problem of qualia by outlining neural correlates of consciousness in terms of competing cellular assemblies.  Detailed neural activities must also be investigated on very fast time scales which is difficult to do.  What can certainly be derived from the study so far is that our cerebral systems are highly evolved (thus being very good at detecting apparent causation), and not surprisingly so, because, we have had enough time in evolution.  Anyway, I'm hoping this expert will shed more light on the subject in the near future:
http://www.klab.caltech.edu/Papers/438.pdf

With all this in mind, and more to the topic of this now wonderfully rich thread, one could posit that what is experienced in the phase is mostly originating from those cortical networks wholly responsible for 'guessing' and 'filling in' when the information received by the senses is incomplete.  In the phase state, of course, they are encouraged to create a new reality (since sensory input is scarce or absent).  But the guessing and filling in isn't just visual (or the rest of the senses), it also centres around expectation (again, going back to the Koch link, when we 'jump to conclusions' is a good example).  It is also worth taking into account that we are not conscious of all of our actions, thoughts or even all that we know - the phase state practice is certainly one way to raise awareness of what we are in terms of the mind and perhaps in the future we will be even more consciously aware in the waking state if we take that biological turn in evolution.

A lot of what we know so far has been experientially observed which has led to a whole range of theories.  A reminder here that the meaning of theory in science is the highest point in comprehending something, and this gives to falsifiable predictions.  So, to conclude, the research goes on.

What I won't do is jump to metaphysical conclusions just because science is still currently trying to understand the phenomenon.  If I did, it would be the equivalent of a maturing child ignoring possible physical events that explain the arrival of Christmas presents and having faith on the baseless Santa Claus hypothesis.  I believe there is a physical basis for everything because that is what I have experienced so far and so far that is what our science tells us.  Some things do not appear to have a cause, granted, but, they always have a basis (these stand on natural laws).  We are only here and conscious of our existence because our hostile and impersonal universe made it possible on a slim chance.

That's my take until a new scientific discovery shifts my paradigm.

@ breadbassed:

No.  Reincarnation implies that a spirit leaves a bodily shell to enter a new body and live another life.  I say there is no spirit.  The rebirth is due to that fact that the coordinates in space eventuate the awareness once again, the sense of self (self here is not an entity, only a sense).  But even this as a possibility is hypothetical and only based on the fact that A) we once didn't exist and yet we were born; and B) the theory that we are all one mind (as a phenomenon that arises in space like gravity) but we see from different perspectives - giving rise to the illusion of individuality.  Again, these are nothing but ideas, and, for all I know, we die and don't come back (more likely than not based on the analogous premise that the time entanglement of two quantum particles (where they are entangled but separated by time) does not mean that the new particle is the one that died - only that a 'copy' has been recreated via interactions - the same could be the case for consciousness).

I commented on the so-called *coughs* God equation on a different thread:

On the "God" equation...  since when does coincidence imply the existence of God?  The equation is the result of mathematical structure where various branches of it unavoidably intersect.  The equation can be used to define complex logarithms where it is useful as these have multi-valued functions. 

Benjamin Peirce, who philosophically expressed his awe at Euler's equation, was a theist who saw everything in support of his worldview.  Anyone can point at something which is amazing and credit a metaphysical being - it doesn't make it so though.  Likewise, the equation can be used to back the atheistic stance.  You will not find the answers to anything in Hockney's series of books, only biased reinterpretation of what is already known to be true.  Again, Euler's equation is not proof of a divine creator or intelligent design.

Once again, creationists attempt to use and twist something veridical in an attempt to support their unfounded ideas.  Talk about filling in the gaps with something metaphysical in order to explain the things that we don't YET understand about nature.  It is nothing but surmising, not explaining.  The universe is the way it is because it can be, if there is a chance, then it has potential to manifest so.  It does not mean that a God engineered it in the way that we know it.


Furthermore, the book attempts to assassinate science and distort facts.  For example, gravity is generally considered to be a weak force in physics but it manifests in different intensities depending on how massive objects are in space (not, as it implies, gravity as a constant law makes the universe fine-tuned to bear life - I can assure you that the universe is anything but that considering that we only live due to a thin atmospheric layer naturally enveloping a 'tiny' grain in space).  And let's remember that this will either lead to cold, hot, dark or shiny objects (not to mention that physics predicted the Chandrasekhar limit with calculations before being confirmed as an established truth).  There is diversity, you see.  It is also preposterous to mention intelligence along the same lines as "angelic" and "divine".  And if you think complexity is evidence of intelligent design, then it is you who needs to listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba2h9tqNYAo

Image

The book is utter tripe.  :(
Last edited by Summerlander on Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby breadbassed » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:28 am

Summerlander wrote:Anyone can point at something which is amazing and credit a metaphysical being - it doesn't make it so though.  Likewise, the equation can be used to back the atheistic stance.  You will not find the answers to anything in Hockney's series of books, only biased reinterpretation of what is already known to be true.  Again, Euler's equation is not proof of a divine creator or intelligent design.



This quote just shows to me that you haven't actually read the books. Ideally you should start from the beginning 'The God Factory'.  Not at one time in the books do they say that there is any divine creator, in fact they completely refute the idea, and prove how ridiculous it is.
User avatar
breadbassed
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:28 am

The books are hooey, breadbassed, and a flick through them suffices to see straight away what type of books they are.  The fact that they call it "God Equation" is a joke.  It still implies that a creator is responsible or that the universe has some creating principle.  What's worse, it takes passages from the Bible and reinterprets them.  On top of that, it uses Euler's equation to justify the "design" argument.  The universe isn't fine-tuned to life.  Life happens by chance.  There is more evidence that the universe is hostile.  If there are so many fallacies and falsities in Hockney's book, I can only wonder about his previous works.

This is from the God Equation:

"If there were such a thing as a Creator, he would be a mathematician, and the 'God Equation' would be the equation he invoked to make the world.  He would in fact have no choice because this is the only equation that can do the job."

"When, according to the Bible, God declared, 'Let there be light!', all he was doing was unleashing the God Equation in all of its transcendent, soulful glory."

"God looked upon the Cartesian grid - extending infinitely in all directions - and saw that it was good."

Seriously?  Is this guy rewriting the Bible?  Why the hell are we even talking about this guy's books?  Come on, breadbassed, come off it!  I almost forget what the topic is.  Oh yeah, how to differentiate "real time" from the mind's projected reality - all this based on the premise that we can really leave our bodies in the phase state and that therefore we have an immortal soul (according to LoLmart's baseless argument for the afterlife and reincarnation - another blunder from that God Equation book!!).  Inevitably, the tangent led to the topic of consciousness...

A lot can be said about consciousness.  Obviously, a bridge needs to be built between neural activity and subjective feelings.  My reasoning is that, if something renders an object inanimate, then another something, the complete (or perhaps not necessarily complete) opposite renders it animate.  The explanation has to be in the realm of physics, something has to cause it, because, to just say it is a ghost inside a machine, we are not really explaining anything at all.

If you choose to believe that a soul is the reason why a living being is conscious/alive then what makes the soul conscious?  Or how does the combination of such and a physical body eventuate experience of what exists?  More importantly, why is it that no evidence of a soul is found in the human body?  What is observed is that a good blow to the head can render an individual unconscious.  Hard enough, and you get coma or even death.  Consciousness, therefore, somehow emerges from the nervous system.  Already, in Christof Koch's research, with the help of Francis Crick (http://www.crick.ac.uk/about-us/francis-crick) - Koch's mentor -  it can be ascertained that some sectors of the brain cortex are neuronally related to consciousness.

One of the most promising scientific theories about consciousness - which is highly appraised by Koch - is that of Giulio Tonomi:
http://tononi.psychiatry.wisc.edu/Peopl ... Tononi.php

Tonomi proposes that integrated information is arranged in a sophisticated manner in the brain which accounts for consciousness.  The integrated information theory introduces the measure of phi, which captures how extensive consciousness is.  Phi informs us of how much the interacting parts of a system differentiate and integrate when said system enters a particular state.  Understanding this in the context of consciousness will allow us to fathom not only waking consciousness but also dreams and phase states. 

Conscious experiences differ from one another and thus so does something in the mechanism.  At the same time, consciousness is holistic.  The larger the phi, the richer the conscious experience of a system.  On and off switches in the brain (some neurons fire some don't), like computer bits (because the brain IS a biological supercomputer) determines the shape of something like a crystal within a gazillion dimensions.  In a highly dimensional space, the shape potential is infinite.  Largely dictated by sensory input and the thoughts + emotions that go with it is waking experience.  In our sleep, especially in the phase, the 'crystal' has even more leeway (or it can take more advantage of the high dimensionality) and thus consciousness can outdo the basic perception of the waking world to create whatever.  With this we can get hyper-reality and super-emotions in the phase state.

Optogenetics technology is being used at the Allen Institute for Brain Science in their 10-year project to understand consciousness.  The findings will also help our progress in medicine.  This is the latest:
http://www.alleninstitute.org/Media/doc ... Atlas.html

If you're interested in the brain atlas, you might want to download this (it's pretty cool):
http://human.brain-map.org/static/brainexplorer
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby breadbassed » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:07 pm

Most of what you said just proves further what is written in the books. All the questions you have asked are also answered in that series of books. I wont speak further of it.  I'll just leave you with this link, don't worry, its very scientific.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zc0ICPo ... re=related
User avatar
breadbassed
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:24 pm

That video sets alarm bells ringing for me... but it did make me laugh! ;D

On a serious note though, breadbassed: he's a quack no different to posers like Deepak Chopra who spout their pseudo-scientific views knowing full well that many out there will buy it (because it is attractive and a fantasist's world).  What's more, they love to use words like "quantum", "proton", "lepton", "quark" and even "Pauli Exclusion" like Mr. Hockney up there, and make a name for themselves that way.  Oh, and there is another one that you should beware: Thomas Campbell.  It's all tripe. ::)

When they meet the real experts, it usually goes something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-FaXD_igv4

If you really want a good grasp of the nature of reality, read books about quantum mechanics by scientists such as Brian Cox and Jeff Forshaw, who have actually worked at CERN, think about the future of technology and inform the public about recent discoveries (including laymen).  Their published works will dispel the silly myths out there.  Creationists do not have a solid argument and they are just plain wrong!! :-X

But that is not what this thread is about.  It isn't about exposing pseudo-scientists, so, for the last time, in answer to the above question, there is no real out-of-body state.  It is all a simulation of the phase state.  No real separation into "real-time zone" or the physical world, and no entry into another dimension that exists objectively.  Sorry, but, New Age and pseudo-science crock is not for me.  This type of crock snares the impressionable.  I find such movements cultish and the spokespeople for them quite dishonest.
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Jeff » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:40 am

::)

"Those who imagine that consciousness of material objects could arise from the effect of some material objects on another particular material object don’t seem to take the notion of matter seriously."

..........."It is magical thinking to imagine that material events in a material object should be appearings of objects other than themselves."

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -ourselves
Last edited by Jeff on Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The closer you get to the meaning;the sooner you'll know that you're dreaming" -Dio
Jeff
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:06 am
Location: Florida

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Summerlander » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:29 pm

::)
;D

Is gravity a tangible object? No.  It is a force.  It exists and it is part of the physical world.  Nothing magical about it.  Neuroscience can tell us a lot about ourselves.  What we don't have is a coherent explanation for consciousness... yet.  But we will very soon...

Some people would like to perpetuate the mystery of consciousness out of a sense of security because they are afraid of what science will uncover.  We are nothing but biological machines.

The following image is not an explanation for consciousness.  If this was the case you would have to explain how the little man inside is conscious and if he happens to have another littler guy inside you would have to explain how he too is conscious ad infinitum:

Image

I am pleased that you are focusing more on consciousness rather than crediting or discrediting pseudoscience (as we have been), Jeff, but I am also curious as to how you would answer the question posed by LoLmart (as regards the phase state).  Perhaps you will have a more satisfying explanation for him?  Where do you stand in all of this anyway?

I'm done with my explanations and opinions here.  I'm willing to sit back and 'listen' now.  Over and out.  8)
Last edited by Summerlander on Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
User avatar
Summerlander
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 1147
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:57 pm
Location: UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby NOVA » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:38 am

Touche Summerlander.  Even though I don't agree with all of your arguments.

But they are interesting. Thank you for you for your dedication here on obe4u Summerlander.

I'm putting my energy into phasing,
As for those of a different ilk, waste of time they will find their one way...eventually.  ::)
There are no humans here. You're it.  There is nothing seperate "out there".
User avatar
NOVA
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:47 am
Location: Lombok Indonesia

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby breadbassed » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:56 am

Summerlander wrote:That video sets alarm bells ringing for me... but it did make me laugh! ;D

On a serious note though, breadbassed: he's a quack no different to posers like Deepak Chopra who spout their pseudo-scientific views knowing full well that many out there will buy it (because it is attractive and a fantasist's world).  What's more, they love to use words like "quantum", "proton", "lepton", "quark" and even "Pauli Exclusion" like Mr. Hockney up there, and make a name for themselves that way.  Oh, and there is another one that you should beware: Thomas Campbell.  It's all tripe. ::)


Fair enough, to be honest, this was the first video of his that i saw, when i watched a couple more i started to doubt his abilities. I'll make sure i look into things more before throwing stuff like that around! I've encountered Thomas Campbell before, i agree that his stance doesn't make sense. Usually with these people the more you research them the less solid their arguments seem to be.

Summerlander wrote:Creationists do not have a solid argument and they are just plain wrong!! :-X


I completely agree!! The books i spoke of are hyper rational idealism based around ontological mathematics, there is no God. They only seek to prove the primacy of mind over matter through the idea that the universe is essentially a mathematical entity, including all of maths (rather than a subset as in materialism), therefore this includes numbers zero and infinity (zero being mind). Zero cannot be created or destroyed and is therefore eternal, but has no creator.

Summerlander wrote:But that is not what this thread is about.  It isn't about exposing pseudo-scientists, so, for the last time, in answer to the above question, there is no real out-of-body state.  It is all a simulation of the phase state.  No real separation into "real-time zone" or the physical world, and no entry into another dimension that exists objectively. 


Its true that the phase state does not exist objectively, its purely a subjective state.  It can be easy to fool yourself into believing you are in waking life when actually in the phase state. I suppose the only way to tell is to do reality checks; putting hands through walls, breathing through a pinched nose etc (this is in response to the original question, not directed at you summerlander, im aware you know this already). 
User avatar
breadbassed
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:15 pm
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: How to differentiate real time from my mind's projected reality?

Postby Jeff » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:22 pm

SL:
"Is gravity a tangible object? No.  It is a force.  It exists and it is part of the physical world.  Nothing magical about it."

Jeff:
Funny you should mention gravity of all things.Forces are communicated by particles.Particles are discrete instances of fields.Fields are regions of space where a force may have influence.They depend on a background of three dimensional space and time to be described.When it comes to gravity there is a problem in modern science with this approach.

Relativity has shown that gravity IS the curvature of space-time.Gravitons,the particles theorized to communicate the force of gravity,cannot be described in a dependent background of space-time without circularity.Modern approaches to this problem are now exploring the hypothesis that space itself is not fundamental but emergent from information and is background independent.Because of this do we call gravity an "illusion" or it's study a "pseudoscience?" Long held a priori assumptions like the existence of absolute space and particles have already been proven incorrect.

Scientists once ridiculed the existence of meteorites as nonsense because rocks can't fall from the sky.As human knowledge advances so do the possibilities and explanations.A possibility that I hold wide open is that the "brain generates consciousness" (and the phase,astral or whatever word for the experience) assumption may be based upon a similar faulty premise with self refuting circularity.

SL:
"Some people would like to perpetuate the mystery of consciousness out of a sense of security because they are afraid of what science will uncover.  We are nothing but biological machines."

Jeff:
And some people appear to be afraid of uncertainty.Desiring closure they may seek security in scientism and pseuoskepticism while deriding others.They may claim,like Lord Kelvin,that there is little left to explain.They may elevate scientific hypotheses to a level of unquestionable religious dogma,even in defiance of their own personal experiences and contrary evidence.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biography/Kelvin.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskeptic

SL:
"
The following image is not an explanation for consciousness.  If this was the case you would have to explain how the little man inside is conscious and if he happens to have another littler guy inside you would have to explain how he too is conscious ad infinitum:"

Jeff:
I take externalism and extended cognition much more seriously than internalism and representationalism so this criticism is misplaced on me.The fact is that,whether 'in' the 'real world' or the phase,our field of consciousness IS unified;while its content appears distinct.

I'll quote Ray Tallis from the article:
[color=blue]And what is it to which the illusion is presented? Here again is the neuroscientific reduction to absurdity, in its purest form: illusions must be experienced by some being, but “being somethingâ€
"The closer you get to the meaning;the sooner you'll know that you're dreaming" -Dio
Jeff
PHASER
PHASER
 
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:06 am
Location: Florida

Next

Return to Controlling the Phase

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Techniques:
How to Lucid Dream Tonight: the Easiest Technique to Start Now
Free Lucid Dreaming Books and Guides. Download and Enjoy
How to Induce Sleep Paralysis - Step-by-Step Instruction
How to Have an Out-of-Body Experience - A Simple Way
Astral Projection Guide - A Collection of 50 Techniques
How to Control Your Dreams - 5 Simplest Techniques
Lucid Dreaming Guide: All Methods and Techniques
Astral Projection Techniques - How to Do It Tonight
Lucid Dreaming and Out-of-Body Travel Videos

Theory:
What is lucid dreaming? Let's make it very simple
Sleep Paralysis - What It Is and How to Stop It
10 Best Astral Projection Books and Authors
Lucid Dreaming Predisposition Self-Test
Lucid Dreaming and OBE Applications

In History:
Near-Death Experience: Is There Life after Death, Afterlife?
God, Christianity, the Bible - Caused by Lucid Dreams?
NEWS: Alien Abductions and UFO Sightings Explained!
Human Evolution - The Next Step

Other:
Out-of-Body Travel and Lucid Dreaming Training
Quantum Physics in 5 Minutes - for Dummies
Michael Raduga - Biography
Lucid Dreaming for Kids
App “The Phase”