Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Jeff » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:11 pm

;D No worries,I agree that nothing has been proven. Someone once said to me " you can connect any star in the sky if you want to." 

Part of the fun is trying to figure things out,I'm just glad to discuss this stuff somewhere...I'm not really too attached to any one theory though...
Last edited by Jeff on Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:24 pm

" you can connect any star in the sky if you want to."


Brilliant quote!  8)
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby 12padams » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:39 am

You know what... I just noticed that the question is biased...

I asked my friend tony (spiritual beliefs) this question and he answered "yes they are all the same". The problem here is that the question itself is not asking if their all the same... its asking if all are a creation of the mind.

Tony explains that they are the same but none are "just in your head". The place these things occur are real and AP,LD and OBE all take you to this same place. This place can be manipulated with your mind which is why the "lucid dreaming (its all in your head) theory works.

The thing about this topic is that it says "ok, astral projection and out of body experiences are actually just lucid dreaming experiences...." then once it gets that idea down it explains that "lucid dreaming is just in your mind which means that since ap and oobe's are just lucid dreaming experiences then everything is in your mind". Micheal is saying "they are all the same" but he says that they are all in your mind.

The real question being asked is "Do you believe the phase (ap/ld/oobe) is all just creation of your own mind"

My response to the REAL Question is... "No". I believe my own mind can access and create/modify new areas in the phase but the amount of proof I have been given of telepathic links is too great to say that the phase is an individual experience/world of your own mind. I am not done with this question however as I will always continue my journey into the phase and see where it takes me. My opinion may change over 10 years like Micheal's has... but what I disagree with is forcing people to believe in one theory. I am almost fine with the theory of "its all in your head" but I take my journey into seeing what it is for myself. I have Micheal telling me its all in my head and tony telling me that its something completely different (too much to explain here).

Tony hates that fact that I don't just believe what he says... He says that anyone (including himself) can enter the phase at will by just "leaving" without doubt. I tried it but I had doubt and because of this I failed... how can you remove doubt of something you don't believe in???

This is why I have chosen to take my own path... Micheal can say what he wants and tony (a.k.a phanes) can say what he wants... Both have completly opposite theory's and tell me that they are correct but so far I have no proof that either are fully correct. Right now I have created my own theory which is in the middle. I don't cling to my theory whatsoever and I allow it to change... that's what makes me different.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:58 pm

The phase is a hybrid state of consciousness that lies between wakefulness and deep sleep.  You get various degrees of phase states, some closer to wakefulness and others closer to non-lucid dreaming.  This is where the practicality of deepening and maintaining comes in so that you can enjoy the optimal deep phase.

The differing degrees of lucidity and clarity has led many to believe that they are visiting different dimensions.  The term astral projection is very belief-centric because it postulates the existence of an astral plane.  Well, where is this astral plane?  In my years of experiencing the phase I have only had absolute proof of one thing: that you can perceive your own thoughts as though they are actual things in an actual reality (but it is an illusion).

The same mechanism that conjures up a picture of the external world when we are awake is the same one that is seen to be very active when there is no sensory input from the physical world.  Thus, it provides something for us to experience, usually during REM sleep, in the absence of information from sensory organs.

I have also had the seemingly telepathic experiences too, but, we cannot say it is true because it is very hard to rule out coincidence, people's interpretations, associations, the subconscious mind and whatnot.  We have to be pragmatic and not jump to assumptions.  Michael Raduga does not say it is all in the mind with absolute certainty, in fact, in one of his videos, it is stated that the phase is, and I quote, MOST LIKELY governed by the subconscious mind.

You may say that you have visited people and that you saw what they were doing at the time or even what was on their minds, but, you also have to take into consideration the times when the phase is completely inaccurate about other people and their actions or thoughts in the real world.  Soon, you find yourself cherry-picking as you scan what has happened and look for possible associations.  I've said this before and I'll say it again about the nature of coincidences: it would actually be weird if they didn't happen as often as they do - but people like to place great significance on things because they need purpose in everything and the mysterious spices things up.  It is just like someone seeing the face of Christ on burnt toast and calling it a sign from God.

12padams, believe me, there was a time when I was absolutely convinced that telepathy was happening but along these years, other factors that can't be ignored came into play.  I am writing a book, a personal account, a journey of discovery the more I experienced OOBEs and lucid dreaming.  The only evidence we have is that the brain is very complex, it far exceeds any computer on Earth, and many of us don't give the human mind enough credit where it's due.  Our imagination is limitless.  Any world can be created in the phase.  But then we have mystics who claim that it is not the mind and credit the paranormal as the real source of these experiences.

The question asked is right and its purpose was to show to members one thing.  OBE, astral and lucid dreaming are terms that people came up with to describe a state of mind that can be entered before, during and after sleep.  It is a phase that must be maintained lest we fall asleep or wake up from it.  It is the very appropriately named "phase state".

What is experienced during that state is up to the practitioner.  However, it has to be emphasised that you can take control of any situation in the phase - especially when you are not thinking that it is beyond your control.  Thinking that something is not yours or beyond your control in the phase (as in the case of people believing that phase characters are spirits of the dead for example) will yield results that will absolutely convince you of the reality being experienced.

To finalise, even waking experience happens in the mind.  No living creature sees and experiences the physical universe directly.  It is all an illusory translation.  If it wasn't, there would be no colour-blind people, we'd be able to smell as many odours as a dog, and we'd be able to detect as many colours in nature as a bee does.  Because we are all different, we all experience the world in different ways albeit quite similarly when it is the same species.
Last edited by Summerlander on Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Rudolph » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:33 pm

"The real question being asked is "Do you believe the phase (ap/ld/oobe) is all just creation of your own mind""

Good re-phrasing there.
I had a few spontaneous OBE's back in the day when I was practicing an Eastern Yoga form and I can tell you that there are levels of OBE that almost no one on these regular forums know about.

The one that is spoken of here is directly connected to the REM state. I saw one Dr. Charles Tart lab study that showed one participant who claimed the ability to go OBE frequently, laid down to begin and a few minutes later the equipment registered a big increase in brain activity in typical dream frequencies. But the guy recalls leaving his body, going to a high shelf and reading a string of numbers. He got the numbers completely correct. Some would say from the equipment reading he was just Lucid Dreaming  -- but then, how did he get the numbers right?

As far as your 'spiritual' friend goes... I hear this now and then and these claims of being able to project OBE while still conscious leave me wanting a little more detailed info. They may be throwing Remote Viewing into the mix and that is a whole 'nuther ball game, imho.

I think Robvan's Radio Receiver analogy works well for explaining the observed phenomena.

Since I have the attention span of a 7 year old I can't write too much more on this, right now....
Maybe I should write a book? heh  ;)
How did you write yours? Are there tools on some website to get you going? I think it would be fun to answer "I am an author" or "I am writing a book" when people ask me what I do.  :D
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:05 pm

I think you should write a book too, Rudolph.  A book on the subject and what you have discovered through experience.  I think the more individual experiences we gather from different individuals, even if they differ from one another, can surely add to our quest for a better understanding...whether it provides a clearer perspective or adds confusion overtime I don't know.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby 12padams » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:33 pm

Maybe I should write a book? heh  ;)
How did you write yours? Are there tools on some website to get you going? I think it would be fun to answer "I am an author" or "I am writing a book" when people ask me what I do.  :D


Ah well to tell you the absolute truth... I used Microsoft word with a b5 (instead of default a4) page size and used the section break tool to separate the chapters/get the headers to tell you what chapter your reading. The page numbers are easy to sort out (just click" add page-numbers") and the table of contents is an auto updating feature which you just use headers and it auto analyzes and write does down page numbers/header name. Actually using word could be complicated but I could send you the "word version" of my book so that you can play around with/convert it into your own book.

What is experienced during that state is up to the practitioner.  However, it has to be emphasised that you can take control of any situation in the phase - especially when you are not thinking that it is beyond your control.  Thinking that something is not yours or beyond your control in the phase (as in the case of people believing that phase characters are spirits of the dead for example) will yield results that will absolutely convince you of the reality being experienced.


In other words "You experience what you believe your experiencing... e.g. If you think your in the astral dimension your mind will create the astral dimension". Its funny because I approach my friend tony with this same idea... What if your experiencing the astral because you think you are. This argument however was used against me saying that the astral transforms based on your beliefs... If you believe its in your mind then it will be created to seem like it is. Some of the things you see are "real" and some are "not real" (created by your mind). Both ideas put forward by summerlander/micheal and Tony/Phanes contradict each-other and both are "possible".

Summerlander: "What you create in the phase yourself is from your conscious mind and what you don't create is from your subconscious mind."
Tony: "What you create in the phase yourself is done by modifying the astral dimension's environment and what you don't create is what's already there"

There is no possible conclusion!!!! This topic will never have an "end".

. But the guy recalls leaving his body, going to a high shelf and reading a string of numbers. He got the numbers completely correct. Some would say from the equipment reading he was just Lucid Dreaming  -- but then, how did he get the numbers right?


The problem is that every time proof is received it can be denied. e.g. a skeptic could say either "luck" or "faked/fraud experiment". If there was some massive experiment to prove it was real then the world would have proof... I told my friend tony about that $1,000,000 prize for that experiment proving that the phase is more than a mind creation that nobody has even attempted to do... He said hes gonna do it in the future (he wasn't told about it prior to today) :) lets see what happens.

Overall I am still refusing to glue myself to side A (its purly your subconscious/conscious mind) or side B (Its a world as real as the physical one). I am however taking advice from both sides... Summerlander (don't believe everything you see and jump to conclusions that a possible coincidence could prove its not all in your head) and Tony (Keep an open mind and don't be quick to explain everything as a dream or just in your head). In other words I will see what I experience and not instantly determine it to be "evidence proving its not in your head" or "purely just just a creation of the mind/subconscious".

The thing is that almost anything can be disproven but proving something is almost impossible.
Last edited by 12padams on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Jeff » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:32 am

To be clear,when we say "creation of the mind" or "creation or governed by the subconscious mind" or we refer to "the imagination" there is an underlying assumption throughout.They are various references to the so called 'brain-mind identity theory.' These terms actually do not explain anything,they are just restatements committed to 'ontololgical materialism' which usually assumes the truth of :

1.Brain-mind identity theory.The statement that all mental states are equal to physical brain states.

2.Epiphenomenalism.The mind is not equal to material states, but is a by product of them and has no causal efficacy.Basically,just an illusion.

Neither come close to explaining how matter can be logically identical to,or give rise to qualia or consciousness.

SL:
"The same mechanism that conjures up a picture of the external world when we are awake is the same one that is seen to be very active when there is no sensory input from the physical world.  Thus, it provides something for us to experience, usually during REM sleep, in the absence of information from sensory organs."

Jeff:
There is no single known mechanism for this.There is evidence for brain activity in certain brain regions associated with certain perceptions,but correlation is not causality. It explains nothing fundamental.


SL:
"The only evidence we have is that the brain is very complex, it far exceeds any computer on Earth, and many of us don't give the human mind enough credit where it's due.  Our imagination is limitless.  Any world can be created in the phase.  But then we have mystics who claim that it is not the mind and credit the paranormal as the real source of these experiences."

Jeff:
All of our bodily organs have complex structure.A single cell is immensely complex,so is the weather and the microstructure of a wall.No one can satisfactorily explain how a brain's complex electrochemical impulses,fields or structure can be identical with,or give rise to conscious experience,in the phase or in 'the real world'.How can connections possibly create content that is not present in the input??

SL:
"What is experienced during that state is up to the practitioner.  However, it has to be emphasised that you can take control of any situation in the phase - especially when you are not thinking that it is beyond your control.  Thinking that something is not yours or beyond your control in the phase (as in the case of people believing that phase characters are spirits of the dead for example) will yield results that will absolutely convince you of the reality being experienced."

Jeff:
What is it that is taking control?Impulses or neurons?They are all the same as one another.And if the controller is a epiphenomenal illusion,then it does not take control of anything.

If one experiences phase characters as you say,but does not hold any beliefs in such things or has never recieved waking sensory input related to such content,then what? It can't always be coincidence.And wishful thinking doesn't cut it when one hasn't had prior thoughts or beliefs to fullfill about such things before they experience them.

SL:
"To finalise, even waking experience happens in the mind.  No living creature sees and experiences the physical universe directly.  It is all an illusory translation.  If it wasn't, there would be no colour-blind people, we'd be able to smell as many odours as a dog, and we'd be able to detect as many colours in nature as a bee does.  Because we are all different, we all experience the world in different ways albeit quite similarly when it is the same species"

Jeff:
I can agree with this up to a point.But there's no convincing reason to believe that the human species experiences the entirety of the external world as it is,this includes matter and it's properties that are assumed to be fundamental.Bell's inequalities,Leggett inequalities and relativity are all pointing to a relational ontology.There's no absolute physical world for a brain to *somehow* faithfully recreate..

Moreover,a fully internal and accurate representation of the world is not necessary for natural selection/evolution.In fact it would be a hinderance.To survive,an organism could just mechanically and reflexively respond in the right way to environmental modifications upon it's senses.No need to go through valuable resources to re-present the modification.If representation is only illusion,then it can have no causal power and therefore could not have been selected.And if the world out there is really complex,an accurate representation would be inefficient and also unnecessary.

As for visual perception,our retinas are 'impoverished'. The environment contains data that is not present on the retinas.Either the brain makes inferences *somehow* ;or the objects of our perception are 'extended'.There's evidence for both actually.There's good reason to believe that reality lies relationally between both the 'subject' and 'object'. IMO,this is possible for the phase too.

The brain and the senses are more certain to have a role in constructing perceptions;rather than re-constructing them.A brain is part of the world and the cranium is not a magic boundary.
Last edited by Jeff on Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:24 am

I know where you are coming from Jeff and admittedly materialism is just like any other creed.  I wouldn't say with a 100% certainty that we are just our physical bodies.  I think it is still feasible that the brain and body is an expression of consciousness.  Perhaps we even get to live many lives.  We just haven't got solid proof.  On this note, we could be the void itself from which all ideas arise (the phase world could even be an intermediate level where ideas can manifest before becoming actual).

If, as they believe in Buddhism, the mind is like space (which is limitless) and realities like turbulent clouds, then when these clouds are gone, we always remain.  after all, the sky is always there.  If this is the case, we truly are immortal in every sense of the word.  Perhaps we may never know...

Here's a quote which is more relevant to the topic:

"During a WILD, or sleep paralysis, the awake and alert mind keeps up its good work of showing us the world it expects is out there -- although it can no longer sense it. So, then we are in a mental-dream-world. Possibly we feel the cessation of the sensation of gravity as that part of sensory input shuts down, and then feel that we are suddenly lighter and float up, rising from the place where we know our real body to be lying still. The room around us looks about the same, because that is our brain's best guess about where we are. If we did not know that we had just fallen asleep, we might well think that we were awake, still in touch with the physical world, and that something mighty
strange was happening -- a departure of the mind from the physical body! The unusual feeling of leaving the body is exciting and alarming. This, combined with the realistic imagery of the bedroom is enough to account for the conviction of many OBE experients' that "it was too real to be a dream." Dreams, too, can be astonishingly real, especially if you are attending to their realness. Usually, we pass through our dreams without thinking much about them, and upon awakening remember little of them. Hence, they seem "unreal." But waking life is also like that -- our memory for a typical, mundane day is flat and lacking in detail. It is only the novel, exciting, or frightening events that leave vivid impressions. If we stop what we are doing, we can look around and say, "Yes, this world looks solid and real." But, if you look back and try to recall, for instance, brushing
your teeth this morning, your memory is likely to be vague and not very life-like. Contrast this to a past event that excited or alarmed you, which is likely to seem much more "real" in retrospect.

Lucid dreamers often comment to themselves in dreams, "I know this is a dream, but it all seems so incredibly real!" All this goes to show that the feeling that an event is real does not mean that it is happening in the physical world that we all share when we are awake. This is not to deny that that inner experiences are real, in that they have deeply profound effects on our lives. However, as lucid dreaming so amply demonstrates, we can learn to distinguish between our personal dreams and events in the consensus dream we call physical reality. When we do, we find that what we thought was one thing -- the waking
world -- is actually another -- a dream.

Proof that some or even most OBEs are dreams is not enough to allow us to say that a genuine OBE is impossible. However, in the interests of lucidity, if you have an OBE, why not test to see if the OBE-world passes the reality test? Is the room you are in the one you are actually sleeping in? If you have left your body, where is it? Do things change when you are not looking at them (or when you are)? Can you read something twice and have it remain the same on both readings? If any of your questions and investigations leave you doubting that you are in the physical world, is it not logical to believe you are dreaming?

Another point to consider is that a dream doesn't always have to happen in REM sleep. Most do, but there are probably quite a few other conditions in which people can lose touch with sensory experience and enter a mental world. Some such states that we know of are hypnotic trance, anesthesia, and sensory isolation. OBEs have been reported from these states (Nash et al., 1984; Olson, 1988). Thus, the argument that an OBE cannot be
a dream because the experient wasn't asleep doesn't hold water."


http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Montana » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:45 am

Rather than try to answer that question directly (and the answer, come to think of it, may well vary from person to person) I relate the following experience, which some of you may find offers and interesting way to explore the question.

In one lucid dream I had, I was 'pretty lucid', say, comparable to day to day life.  But it was a slippery lucidity ... I was afraid I would lose it shortly.  It happened that there were other people milling around.  Somewhat spontaneously, I grabbed another fellow by the shoulders and said.... "Hey!  Wake Up!  We're in a dream!"  He was like 'yah yah ... whatever~'.  I said something like "No, THIS is a DREAM!... see?  We're dreaming!!!" He looked me in the eye, and suddenly, he got it. He too went lucid.  The instant that happened, the whole world there went really solid, and my lucidity became very solid.  I felt and thought "I'm free!  I can stay here forever!  I just need to wake up a few more people!"    .... Unhappily, the phone rang (in this world) and woke me.  :-(

Apparently, where others are also awake, the world one inhabits becomes more solid, more stable...?
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Jeff » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:14 pm

That's really interesting Montana.There's is really something amazing about 'dream characters'. I've had a whooole lot of these types of conversations too.

Once,after alot of effort by me to stabilize by spinning,I came upon an amazing landscape with mountains in the backdrop.There was a ranch house and a middle age couple grooming the yard.I told them we were dreaming and asked them to explain 'this place' to me.They looked at each other and rolled their eyes as if to say "Here's another one..." Then the man said to the women: "We should have never left our line open" I asked: "what does that mean?!" as I rubbed my hands together but I fouled anyway.(Can DCs 'kick us out' of the phase? I actually think maybe so as crazy as it sounds.)

Sometimes I wonder if actually both points of view could be correct together.What I mean is, something like what Wolfgang Pauli believed could be true.Mind and matter could be complementary like time and energy or position and momentum.Something like a 'neutral monism' or 'dual aspect monism' could be what's going on.This would allow for both the material neural correlates and the phenomenal aspects of the phase to be both equaly real and 'causal'.

What you described is like the opposite of controlling (some) DCs I think.In either case,I wonder if the concept of the 'bose-einstein condensate' might be useful? Maybe this aplies to the conscious aspect of the 'neutral' 'substance' of reality too ?
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby 12padams » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:34 pm

Montana wrote: Somewhat spontaneously, I grabbed another fellow by the shoulders and said.... "Hey!  Wake Up!  We're in a dream!"  He was like 'yah yah ... whatever~'.  I said something like "No, THIS is a DREAM!... see?  We're dreaming!!!" He looked me in the eye, and suddenly, he got it. He too went lucid.  The instant that happened, the whole world there went really solid, and my lucidity became very solid.  I felt and thought "I'm free!  I can stay here forever!  I just need to wake up a few more people!"    .... Unhappily, the phone rang (in this world) and woke me.  :-(

Apparently, where others are also awake, the world one inhabits becomes more solid, more stable...?


Wow thanks... That give me a lot of confidence for the plans I have made for my second book (phase acquaintances). I will have a phase-person (perfect lucidity trigger) who I will meet in every phase experience and they will be my guide. On my request (most nights) they will pull me out of my body as I awaken making it the perfect technique. Even if the phase is a creation of the mind the technique will still work because you believe it will work.

That will happen of course only if the big proof event tony has planned for me in April doesn't happen. If it does my books are history... and so am I (I am still going to be alive but just won't be 'here' anymore)
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:35 pm

Ok, first of all, nothing can take over your body during the phase.  Secondly... OOBEs, astral projection and lucid dreaming are the same phenomenon - the phase state!!

The experience is an illusory one, albeit one that can tell you a lot about yourself and perhaps provide you with great insight into the nature of reality.  So far, in my journey, I have not encountered nor been possessed by anything that I would deem to be a spirit or a demon.  Scary figures in lucid dreams can easily be transmuted into something else and they have shown themselves to be nothing more than aspects of my subconscious mind when addressed diplomatically and with courage.

If anything, experience in the phase has taught me that the ideas conveyed in esoteric cosmology such as spiritual planes and discarnate beings are based on biased interpretations, exaggerations and dogmatic tripe with no firm foundations whatsoever.  You might as well believe in Santa Claus because some kid said he saw him when he woke up in the night to use the toilet. 

Even the idea that déjà vu is a supernatural symptom is a perfect example of many people revelling in unfounded beliefs just because they sound cool - not to mention some silly conspiracy theories out there!!  I'm just going to put a stop to all of this because it has gone far enough...

Just a few nights ago I entered the phase and did a lot of flying.  Then I partially lost lucidity when I decided to fly on a space shuttle with my wife as a co-pilot.  Lucidity would come full bloom when I nearly crashed into buildings only to lose some of my mental faculties all over again.  It was like I'd get lost in the thrill of the experience but still retain lucidity even if it was minimal.  What I didn't realise, however, and I'll get to the point I'm trying to make here, is that I was in some sort of experiential loop whereby I would take off into the sky only to take off again from the ground a moment later.

Now, I only realised I had done this upon awakening... not while it was occurring.  Taking this into consideration, one can see how easily a déjà vu experience could come about in the waking state when a brain glitch occurs making one glimpse preconscious information before it reaches full consciousness.  The sensation, however, is often seen as mystical or supernatural and often associated with precognition.

destinii, on your sting mark, it is possible that you might have done that yourself during sleep but in the phase it was interpreted as being caused by something else.  this interpretation, however, is hallucinatory in nature and not real.  Sometimes dramatic physical changes do occur as a result of altered states of consciousness (lucid dreaming included), but it is rare.  There is a report of someone being hypnotised and made to believe that he was holding a hot piece of metal when it was cold.  A burn mark appeared.  these are nothing but extreme cases of how the mind can affect the body.

In the end, we are nothing but interactive cells.  Our organism formed from these as they multiplied and kick-started a chain reaction.  This impetus will come to an end as do all things.  There is no reason to believe that consciousness in living beings is a ghost inside a physical mass - as much as Jeff up there likes to think it is.  There is more evidence, and undeniably more so lately, that consciousness results from complex matter interactions.  Just like objects in space collapse under the force of gravity (and the more massive the stronger this force becomes), so does consciousness arise and evolve as those cells multiply and the connections become ever more numerous.

Your baby is safe, have no fear.  Why not enter the phase and have fun.  Try to see what your baby will look like in the phase when he/she is born! ;)
The Phase = Lucid Dreaming / Out-of-Body Experience / Astral Projection
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby MichaelWalker » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:23 pm

Wow, I can see this is a pretty heated discussion (over the course of a few years!). In my opinion it comes down to one thing. If you believe whether or not you exist without your physical mind. I think therefore I am. I personally believe I am therefore I think. I see my physical presence as a peripheral that allows me to interact with the physical world.
I do agree with Michael in one aspect though, it is all semantics. If what we experience allows us as individuals to grow, to become more than we were a moment ago, then knowing objective reality doesn't really matter because we are accomplishing what we are meant to do.
One more thing I would like to point out. If someone disagrees with you, and this in turn causes you to become upset, then I believe that the more important question is why are you upset. Try turning that focus inward and with a humble attitude you will learn and grow.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:26 am

What if a person is upset because someone else is being ignorant? ;D
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby MichaelWalker » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:45 pm

Are you upset at the person or ignorance?? :o
We interpret our environment with our minds. This is no different while in Phase, its another way to experience. (data for our minds ;D ) If you were to encounter a individuality while say in a lucid dream and they displayed ignorant traits, would you be upset? (even if it is only construct of your own mind) I myself wouldn't because I believe that other's don't define who I am. I would feel empathetic towards them because of their ignorance, but I know that it doesn't change who I am, and I believe true happiness comes from within, so there would be no reason for me to become upset.
So to stay on topic, is there any difference between OBE, lucid dreaming and what is commonly referred to as being "awake"?
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:44 pm

It all depends on how you define ignorance and in which context. If a person is being persistently ignorant, even in the face of plausible explanations, then you can hardly blame the individual who gets annoyed at such trait.

We must also not forget that the phase and dreams have a fundamental difference to reality. When we sleep and dream, our minds invent reality in the absence of sensory input - hence why you can look at an apple in the phase, look away, and look back to sometimes find that the apple no longer exists.

The same is not true about reality when one is awake as our minds are now interpreting sensory input from an external physical world. Although the experience of the physical world is also subjective, the source of this experience is objective. This is why two living beings can agree and confirm that certain things exist in the world. A human can confirm that a mountain exists in the distance with his visual sense. A bat can confirm its existence using sound waves. Each creature interprets what really exists in different ways. Both can confirm the object's reality.

Now, if one encounters a character who appears to be ignorant in the phase, in a way, that character partially defines the phaser as it is, after all, a reflection of mental states. It could even be that the ignorant character originates from a preconscious thought that symbolises the word ignorance. That doesn't matter any way. What matters is that we remind ourselves that the characters are not real people, they are simulations or semblances of sentient beings. There is no reason to worry about showing them sympathy or to make them feel good because you are not dealing with real people - they are elements which form part of your psyche. You could even ignore them in the knowledge that you are not really hurting anyone.

In answer to your question, the phase combines wakefulness and dreaming. OOBEs and lucid dreams happen during this hybrid stage. If you think about it, even a lucid dream can be regarded as an OOBE because it is also a disociative experience. They are both the phase state. To be awake is to possess consciousness. In the phase you are awake in your inner mental worlds. If you attain the phase via dream consciousness, for example, you will experience the unmistakable feeling of 'coming to' in a dream world. You are now conscious but you weren't before when you were just dreaming. Of course, consciousness is partially inherent in ordinary dreams, but, the unconscious appears to dominate and you lack many of the mental faculties that become available to you in wakefulness or in the phase state.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby MichaelWalker » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:10 pm

True, however aside from the obvious fact that there is an objective reality while I am awake, how does that change who I am as an individual? If my subjective reality is based on my perception, which is the only way that I can experience objective reality, then the only differences between wakefulness and phase are the rules that govern them, and that there are individual entities with their own minds that coexist within objective reality.
So becoming upset at another's persistent ignorance is a choice based on our experiences and the influence those experiences have had on our minds. However, we possess the ability of being self aware so we have the option to base that choice on said influences or to move beyond and choose another way to experience it.

You mentioned "you will experience the unmistakable feeling of 'coming to' in a dream world". From my own experiences this feeling is not limited to the dream world. Imagine that feeling of entering phase while your are awake! For myself it has been a profound experience. I think the best way to explain this is to use the example of a normal dream. In a dream we are enmeshed within and react to strange and fantastical situations - because there are no objective rules, physics and such - and then we realize we are dreaming and the situation dissolves. We become "Aware", and enter into a phase state. Now, look at the waking world around us as you read this post, observe yourself and, others around you. Compare what you see now to the dreams that you have had. Notice the similarities between the two, how we "react" to our environment, Try to suspend disbelief for a moment and picture the waking world as a dream, and imagine waking within this dream. Feel your body sitting at your computer, or phone as the case may be, the same way you can feel your sleeping body while lucid. It is this "conscience awareness" that allows us to move beyond influence, the same as it allows us to move beyond the dream.
I think this is possible, because wakefulness, OOBE, astral and lucid dreaming are the same because they are all perceived by our minds. Many of the arguments I have read in this tread say that OOBE, and lucid dreaming are different because the individuals that have experienced both have often said that they "feel" different. Well don,t you also "feel" different while you are awake?
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:09 pm

Now, look at the waking world around us as you read this post, observe yourself and, others around you. Compare what you see now to the dreams that you have had. Notice the similarities between the two, how we "react" to our environment, Try to suspend disbelief for a moment and picture the waking world as a dream, and imagine waking within this dream. Feel your body sitting at your computer, or phone as the case may be, the same way you can feel your sleeping body while lucid. It is this "conscience awareness" that allows us to move beyond influence, the same as it allows us to move beyond the dream.


This is one of Stephen LaBerge's techniques to increase the chances of becoming lucid in a dream. You will find this very advice in the CD that comes with his book "Lucid Dreaming". I wouldn't say that it allows you to move beyond influence though. You are still being influenced by a state of mind and thus behaving according to how you feel. It is true that you would have behaved differently in certain dream scenes had you known that you were dreaming, but this does not mean that in the phase you have free will as opposed to being totally influenced by the unconscious mind in a dream. We don't even have free will in wakefulness. Our will is always directed by unconscious processes in our primordial brains (see our free will thread for more insight).

In the phase state, compared to ordinary dreams, our sense or illusion of free will is merely strengthened. But the truth is that our choices are still dictated by how we are made to feel. The same is the case in waking life. Imagine that you have smoked for 20 years and finally succeed in quitting. You may think you were free to will this but if you take a good look introspectively you will realise that you made such decision because the right frame of mind presented itself. Ask yourself why you were unable to quit prior to the passage of 20 years. Why didn't you quit say after 10? You were not free to do so.

Consider this analogy for ordinary dreams and phase experiences. Most of the time we breathe unconsciously. The act of inhaling and exhaling happen without giving it thought and awareness of this is absent. This is akin to dreaming, where we are fully absorbed in plots that are often absurd and we lack self-awareness. Now, sometimes you are aware of breathing and consciously control it. This is akin to the phase. But you are still not free of influence. There is only so far you can inhale before your physiology forces you to deflate your lungs. Your choices are limited and whatever you choose is dictated by how you feel and whatever thoughts arise in your mind. In the phase, you are advised to have a plan of action so you maintain control and remain focused. If you don't have a plan, you are forced to make decisions based on the environments that present themselves before you. Perception of the phase world will influence you psychologically and the case is the same in the waking world.

In the phase, compared to mere dreaming, you have more scope for choice as more mental faculties are active. You are able to be more critical. But this only reinforces your illusion of free will, it does not take away from the fact that your waking ego is still being directed by the unconscious quicksands beneath it. Can you honestly tell me that you know what you will be thinking in the next minute or hour when you come away from your computer and reflect on what I have stated here? In fact, what you think and what you have posted previously was a response to my posts. I have had an effect on your thinking and actions. In the same vein, what I have just posted comes from directed will, not free will. You have effected me. We are part of a universe in constant motion. As individuals, we are clearly no more free than a puppet and cannot claim true conscious authorship of our actions ad absurdum.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby mikeson tw » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:18 pm

Is BlackBerry better than iphone?if i ask this question to people who walking on the street and use mobile phone. i will get a objective Answer.but if i ask this question to a salesman who works for BlackBerry or iphone. the answer will never objective. Mr Raduga write a book" The Phase" he stand he is a materialis .not a normal people ,a writer or a scientist

Mr Raduga look like a salesman for BlackBerry ,he sad iphone is a fack and it is bad. you shouldn't believe iphone .he criticize all writers if they think OBE is not a dream,it real happen

i think Mr Raduga shouldn't criticize Bruce and Monroe. because Bruce didn't write a book and said : look ,Mr Raduga is a lier ,his book mislead readers. it's rude . you can tell you theory and experience to your readers .but you are not their parents .you think your reader don't have Independent thinking so you tell them you should have Independent thinking.

people always think they are right. and the different points to me is always wrong .or they are deluded. they IQ is low or they can't think Independent.

i don't known is Robert Monroe right? but his book is more objectivity.

i‘m not a American. and my English is not clear
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Re: Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:33 pm

Michael Raduga is more pragmatic. People like Robert Bruce and Monroe make wild claims and deceive their readers with pseudoscience. You cannot go wrong with Raduga because he is all about techniques that have been tried, tested, and can be verified by just about everyone.
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby memoSM » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:51 pm

That's the question... I've tried hard to get into 'real world' in 'astral' but there are always signals that doesn't fit with 'real world' Could these worlds be a parallel universes? Can it be possible to experience a real soul detachment (in this universe) with more training? That may comprobate the existence of the soul. Great endeavor with 'the phase', you guys. Cheers!
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Re: Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby julio silva » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:30 pm

First I want to apologize for my English, it is a little bit rusty.

About the topic, I believe there is some experiences where a person manage to read an information written in a paper in other room.

In the Raduga’s book there is a report where a student read a playing card while in phase, then confirmed it when wake up. He missed the suit but hit the number. Assuming he told the truth, it is a reasonable evidence. Hit the result by luck would be a chance in thirteen.

How do you see these type of experiences?
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Re: Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby Summerlander » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:15 pm

Reasonable evidence? No it's not. He still missed the suit. Besides, even if he got the card right, it wouldn't prove anything. It may be improbable but not impossible. The chances of winning the lottery are slimmer than that and people still win.

And no, you do not travel to parallel universes in the phase. Astral planes and separation from the body into the the real, objective world, is utter nonsense, too. When you seemingly separate from the body in the phase, and you find that an inaccurate bedroom replica surrounds you, know that what you perceive is entirely subjective and illusory. The bedroom replica is a mental construction from memory and expectation. (From false memory, some would say, since there are so many inconsistencies found in that DREAM world.)
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Re: Are OBE, astral and lucid dreaming the same?

Postby amoreto » Wed May 20, 2015 12:56 pm

I totally disagree that out of body experience is the same as lucid dream. I had both and in the out of body state we can see thigs that really happen in the physical world, and confirm after the experience!

Also, the Canterbury Institute made experiences that proved that OBE is not REM state, but lucid dream is.

I have just finished reading Mr. Raduga`s book and I think it is one of the best in practical techniques, that also gave me easy and real experiences, but in terms of research and references I recommend the best treatise already written about the phenomena: Projectiology, by Waldo Vieira, a brazilian doctor and one of the most prominent references on the subject.

and please, let´s separate things here: pragmatism is not the same as materialism, which is also a kind of creed of the cartesian scientific paradigm. scepticism is not a form of lucid research (I respect the contrary point of view, but disagree)

in the other hand, not all forms of non recognized phenomena shoud be classified as esoteric or mystical. it depends on the reference that our "addict" mind adopt in each case.

The Projectiology site for reference: http://www.iacworld.org/projectiology/
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Techniques:
How to Lucid Dream Tonight: the Easiest Technique to Start Now
Free Lucid Dreaming Books and Guides. Download and Enjoy
How to Induce Sleep Paralysis - Step-by-Step Instruction
How to Have an Out-of-Body Experience - A Simple Way
Astral Projection Guide - A Collection of 50 Techniques
How to Control Your Dreams - 5 Simplest Techniques
Lucid Dreaming Guide: All Methods and Techniques
Astral Projection Techniques - How to Do It Tonight
Lucid Dreaming and Out-of-Body Travel Videos

Theory:
What is lucid dreaming? Let's make it very simple
Sleep Paralysis - What It Is and How to Stop It
10 Best Astral Projection Books and Authors
Lucid Dreaming Predisposition Self-Test
Lucid Dreaming and OBE Applications

In History:
Near-Death Experience: Is There Life after Death, Afterlife?
God, Christianity, the Bible - Caused by Lucid Dreams?
NEWS: Alien Abductions and UFO Sightings Explained!
Human Evolution - The Next Step

Other:
Out-of-Body Travel and Lucid Dreaming Training
Quantum Physics in 5 Minutes - for Dummies
Michael Raduga - Biography
Lucid Dreaming for Kids
App “The Phase”