Re: What do you believe?

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Re: What do you believe?

Postby Michael Raduga » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:20 pm

only your own experience can show you the reality(your own reality). But not single experience! Only regular practice can do it.

I do not believe
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Re: What do you believe?

Postby Jeff » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:00 pm ... /alva_noe/

There is a philosophy being developed called 'The Extended Mind" which seems to be saying that one's self and it's conscious percepts are not something that exist as separate from the context and interactions with their environment. Perceptions are 'where' they seem to be-out there in the world- as oppossed to the dogma that 3 pounds of nuerons and electro-chemical nuerotranmitters make up a black box 'internal' model of the world-a total illusion whether asleep or 'awake.'

It hasn't spoken yet as to the reality of indepenently existing 'astral' or nonphysical spaces to my knowledge.However,I personally believe that their philosophy is compelling,and if it is to be logically consistent then it should also extend to the possibility of other reality frames ,or the environments of 'phase' experiences.

I hold open the possibilty that phase spaces are 'real' but they take place in another 'mind-like' or 'thought responsive' level of reality- the waking consensus world and the 'phase' may be a contiuum of sorts. 'Physical' could be an observer dependent relational perspective.Things in the phase seem to have another set of physical laws and properties.

Here is part of an interview with the author Alva Noe talking about his excellent book "Out Of Our Heads-Why you are not your brain,and other lessons from the biology of consciousness."

OK, if our brains aren't going to explain thought and consciousness, then how should we study these things?

Consciousness is an achievement of the whole animal in its environmental context. And to really understand it, you'd have to study it that way.

Suppose we ask ourselves: What makes certain patterns of neural activity visual? What I have proposed -- building on work with collaborators -- is that to answer that question, we need to look to the behavioral and environmental context. I think we can make progress toward explaining the character of experience, but only by looking at the way the neural activity arises in and indeed enables a certain kind of dynamic exchange with the world.

Seeing is a certain way of relating to the world around you; the brain plays a critical role in supporting that relation. It's not revealing something about the cells themselves -- or the way they are firing -- that does the explanatory work. Rather, it's understanding the way the cells participate in a larger interaction with the world that will shed light on what it is to see. This is a whole new way of approaching the problem. The "it's all in your brain" approach doesn't work. If we expand our idea of the machinery of mind to include the body and the world, whole new ways of thinking about and explaining consciousness come into view.

The study of consciousness should be a cross-disciplinary field: behavioral science, math, linguistics, robotics, artificial intelligence and philosophy -- these all make contributions. Brain studies, too. But you can't reduce the study of human life to the study of things happening inside a person's brain. You have to look at a person's active life in its context.
Last edited by Jeff on Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you believe?

Postby Summerlander » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:36 pm

Kralafrap wrote:Hi, do you believe that your consciousness leaves the body while astral projecting/OBE'ing? Or what do you think? Have you tried to make your own experiments? I have asked this question before and the primary response i got was like "it is real, and when you experience it you will know" but just because that it feels real i does not have to be that way, so i wont accept this comment as an answer to my question.

I have been experiencing the phase actively for three years now and I remember many experiences when I was a child.  I don't believe that consciousness leaves the body even though a separation from the body appears to be actual.

Nothing in the phase is actual.  You are basically entering the realm of thoughts and interpreting such thoughts with representations that emulate physicality.  Even the sense of space/distance in the phase is a thought in itself and not actual.  Phase environments appear actual because you are focusing on an altered state of consciousness.  But the truth is that objects and the sense of space there can be altered by our minds.

It is real in the sense that you experience it, but, I guarantee you that, every time you leave your body, you are are simply entering a mental reality that is most likely governed by the subconscious mind.

Some theories posit that practitioners don't always perambulate inner worlds in the phase and that telepathy may be possible in this way.  Some reckon that, because our local universe came from one Big Bang where all matter interacted, that our minds are now quantum entangled in some way.  Whether there is a level of objectivity or it is all subjective, I don't know, but, we shouldn't underestimate the potential of our own minds and the complexity of the brain.

My advice to you is to gain experience as Michael Raduga said and draw your own conclusions.  You might find that the phase may open up other perspectives and angles that you haven't considered before.  It's a state of consciousness that allows you to see manifest possibilities and it can change your life.
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Re: What do you believe?

Postby Jeff » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:22 pm

I say go for it MercuryMoth,
As for myself,I have found that the closer my percieved environment resembles that of my waking world,the more likely a 'foul' becomes.In this situation, I experience difficulty in moving (apparently) away from my sleeping body's location.This occurred the other night for me and my phase legs had to be dragged on the floor for a period while I deepened-a foul occurred anyway.I find that the more novel my environment seems to be,the more stable it is.In this situation,there is probably less shared information between such a percieved environment and waking reality.

This may be just me though,I don't know what others experience.I may actually have a mental block about this and so I doubt at this time that I can be successful.I have,however,confirmed in the waking world other types of information that I've experienced in the phase-so I believe this is possible in principle.

One thing to realize is that if you do complete this task,it is only useful information or confirmation for you alone.That is unless you do so under controlled experimental conditions. I believe someone here,maybe Breadbassed, linked to a video  in which Charles Tart successfully carried out this experiment with an OBEer.It's on one of these threads.

If it turns out that our consciousness is not confined to our brains alone,but is really something like a dynamic distributed pattern of activity within an environmental context or framework,then nothing really leaves the body anyway.OBEs may turn out to be unremarkable oneday,they could be just another means by which we as an organism couple with it's environment.But the 'environment' may be something much more expansive then we may now know-and our conscious experiences in the phase might be an extension defined by these 'other' patterns.

I don't know,my opinions change as I gather information.My beliefs may change to adapt to what ever knowledge or research I come across......
Last edited by Jeff on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you believe?

Postby wicsnow » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:07 pm

It must be entirely possible for your consciousness to leave your body because the whole reason I have been investigating astral projection is because I repeatedly have dreams about places that I haven't visited yet, then visit them in real life. Usually within 3 months to 2 years time. The first time I realised this was happening was when I took an alternate route driving somewhere and passed by a place that was in the process of being built. I had dreamed of the place twice, and actually dreamed I was sort of flying or floating around the area.  I had to stop at the construction site to look. Since then it has happened many times. I am investigating astral projection because that is the only explanation I can come up with, unless anyone else has another idea?
Last edited by wicsnow on Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you believe?

Postby Luna » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:32 pm

I don't really know what I believe just yet.  Will keep you posted.  ;)
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. ~ Einstein
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